Mike Southon: This is Mike Southon for Beermat Radio in association with Coutts and today I am chatting with Judy Naake.  Hello Judy.

Judy Naake: Hello.

Mike Southon: Now Judy is very well known for being let’s see if I get this title right, “The Queen of Self Tanning.”  You are the St Tropez Tan Lady.

Judy Naake: Yes I am the St Tropez guru.

Mike Southon: The St Tropez guru.  It’s your job to take celebrities and make them rather browner.  That’s what you do.

Judy Naake: That’s right yes.

Mike Southon: We will get to that.  But you had a big advantage starting which is you obviously have it in the genes; your father was an entrepreneur or is an entrepreneur?

Judy Naake: Well I was bought up in a family business yes.

Mike Southon: And what was the family business?

Judy Naake: He was in… he had shops, he had wall paper and paint and hardware shops and jewellers and a florists and so from four years old I used to sit behind the shop counter.  So I have always been brought up and know the value of a pound I think.

Mike Southon: This was in Nottingham?

Judy Naake: In Nottingham yes.

Mike Southon: Nottingham so that’s where you were born and bred?

Judy Naake: Yes.

Mike Southon: And so you must have been quite well known in the area for entrepreneurship?

Judy Naake: Yes I think I was, you know I was always selling something I think.

Mike Southon: Brilliant.  That is a great place to start for an entrepreneur so you obviously went to school but did your father always have in mind that perhaps you would be in the family business or running your own business?

Judy Naake: No I think I was always a disappointment to my father because he wanted me to be a Doctor.  Well I have to tell you I would be the worst Doctor in the world and so I left school at 15 with no qualifications, I failed my 11+ which is I find it very common with entrepreneurs and so really I just had to get out  and prove myself and the only way I knew to do that was to buy and sell things I suppose.

Mike Southon: So what were the first things you bought and sold?

Judy Naake: Oh I used to sell jewellery.  I used to work as a sales agent and then I used to buy it and sell it on.  I was a John Player girl, so I used to do sales promotions, so I of course had a lot of valuable sales experience with them and I had a course of HGV and I used to drive a Bedford Duple Coach for them the length and breadth of the country with a mobile showroom and so we used to do a lot of selling with that really.

Mike Southon: So why did you decide to do an HGV, you just fancied driving the truck or…?

Judy Naake: No, but John Players wanted me to go.  I was 21 at the time and because most of the girls were perhaps too young and so I said Oh yes, so they sent me out on a two week course of advanced HGV and of course I was 21.  You can imagine and you know we had the hot pants, now a uniform but of course there was no such thing as female lorry drivers then.  So it was a great thing to do.

Mike Southon: Excellent and you obviously took to sales, so what do you think makes a good salesperson.  What were you good at that people used to buy from you?

Judy Naake: I think it’s people skills.  I think it’s being able to go in on any level…I can you know working in the fruit shop I would say, what would you like, love?  and I could do that well and of course on the other hand I would say how can I help you madam and I think it’s just knowing which level to pitch it.  And I think I also have the ability to go in on an intimate level which is not a skill that everyone has which actually surprises me because to me it’s natural.

Mike Southon: You say getting to personal level but it’s really about I think what you discover is creating empathy quickly with people…?

Judy Naake: Yes

Mike Southon: So you feel you can ask personal question if it’s appropriate or keep a little bit of a distance if that’s what they need.  It’s picking those signs up?

Judy Naake: It is… it is.

Mike Southon: I mean, because we wrote a book on sales and one of the things we said the most important thing was to be liked, because if they like you they will talk to you, but not so much persuade people to like you that’s a bit manipulative, just pick up whether they like you, or get you or not quickly and concentrate on those.

Judy Naake: Yes that’s right yes.  It’s just that eye contact and I think the ability to smile easily.  I remember a boyfriend saying to me once, I thought you know that smile was just put on he said but you know you do it all the time.  And I think that’s I don’t know, I don’t know if it’s natural or a part of selling or just the way I am.

Mike Southon: A big and smiley person helps in sales.

Judy Naake: Yes I think so.

Mike Southon: I think that’s absolutely true. So how long did you were working for John Player?

Judy Naake: About ten years.

Mike Southon: Oh gosh, that’s quite a serious career.

Judy Naake: Yes well it was a strange thing because I was employed on a temporary basis because they would never have employed me full time because I think I didn’t ride and Daddy wasn’t a Vicar.  But I was the best sales girl they had so I was just paid on a daily rate.  So of course you never say no to a day’s work so you sort of I was always working because when you are self employed like that you think you are never going to work again and you don’t take a holiday for the same reasons.  But in fact it was spread over 10 years in the end, I did other bits and bobs in between but about ten years in all.

Mike Southon: So where did you move to after that?

Judy Naake: I went to run a health club.

Mike Southon: And so you from one extreme to the other I guess?

Judy Naake: Yes.

Mike Southon: So from cigarettes to running a health club that probably wasn’t a conscious decision at the time, it just seemed like a good thing to do?

Judy Naake: Well I was a member of the health club and I knew the owner of the health club and he said he was looking for a new Manageress and Vicky, who was his girlfriend at the time said there was only person and that’s Judy Caplin as I was then.  So I said well I don’t know if it’s me David, but I will try it.  And it was three days a week but 12 hour days, I said we will try it for a month and see how you get on.  Well a month went by and I still wasn’t sure but I carried on and I carried on and I was there for three years and in fact that’s the only three years of my whole life that I had been actually employed properly.

Mike Southon: By somebody else?

Judy Naake: Yes.

Mike Southon: And did you enjoy the health club?

Judy Naake: I did enjoy it very much.  Yes it was fantastic, I loved it, that was in Nottingham and we also opened one in London.  But I think with most things there is a time to move on and from then I went to…I was running my father’s restaurant front of house.  I didn’t mention that we had a restaurant as well, but that was later.

Mike Southon: What sort of a restaurant was it?

Judy Naake: It was fine dining, choice of 40 main courses all cooked fresh which was quite a tough call but I loved that.  You know that was a great thing for getting the adrenalin going.  You know on a Saturday night I could lose five pounds in weight just running.

Mike Southon: But you said front of the house, it’s back to the people skills, it’s greeting the people that come in and remembering them and giving them the table they want and those things?

Judy Naake: Yeah exactly yes, yeah.

Mike Southon: And was that what you liked about the health club as well, were you doing anything else?

Judy Naake: Yes all front of house, that was my job yeah so it was good.

Mike Southon: So you are front of house for your father’s restaurant, what was it like working for your father?

Judy Naake: Well it was good, he used to pay me £10 a night and I don’t think he really valued me for what I was because in the day times I used to go out, that was when I started being a sales agent and I was selling Decleor skin care so I would be out on the road all day and in the restaurant at night.  And until eventually my Decleor side really built up and then for personal reasons I really couldn’t continue to work evenings and so I took other ranges on and jewellery that I used to sell from the car because of course not being employed I could sell anything I wanted providing it didn’t conflict.  And then I took on St. Tropez and I suppose that’s how it came about.  In the mean time I did have a child you know, my son in the middle of all of this as well.

Mike Southon: So you did have a private life as well.

Judy Naake: I did but you know sometimes I used to take him in his carry cot and sit him in the corner of the jewellery shop so…

Mike Southon: So St, Tropez this was an existing product that you took on?

Judy Naake: It was an existing product.  It was already in America and everyone in the country had turned it down but I liked the look of it.  Although I had got fake tans, this one was different because it was aloe-vera based and it was tinted which was very unusual because most people make when they have a fake tan, they always make the mistake in missing a bit or getting a streak because you can’t see where they’re putting it.  Whereas St. Tropez you see negated all that and so I thought at last I had found a product that you didn’t have to train with or you know how wrong could I be.  But as I say everyone in the business had turned it down, nobody wanted it, but it just appealed to me, I just knew what a good product it was really.

Mike Southon: So you just started off selling what like a bottled product from your car?

Judy Naake: Yes there were five products in the range and it went in a counter top display and what I liked about it was the fact that it was a compact range and it looked good.  The iconic image of the girl on the pier was fantastic, and the price point was good in the respect that I could sell it into a salon at that time I think it was about £150.  So it was affordable because when you are selling into beauty salons, there is only so much money that they can spend without a great deal of thought and so that was the magic number for me and it worked very well and I opened the accounts very quickly.  But then discovered that they had problems selling it through because I think they were scared of it.  So what I did was to have workshops, length and breadth of the country every Sunday and Monday and what I did, I placed an ad in the Trade Magazine and it said, “Self tanning workshops, £25 in your area, phone this number to book your place.”  So when we got enough people we would book the room and if we didn’t get any takers then we didn’t have to book a room and I hadn’t lost any money.  And I would make the sandwiches the night before because I couldn’t afford to go to Sainsbury’s and buy them and I knew that so many of these training courses you know they send you out for lunch.  Well I just think that’s not nice you know, so I also wanted to give that little bit more.  So I’d go along in the old van with all the stock in the back and then I would demonstrate how to do a tan and then they would split into couples, one would do the tan the other one would be model and we would have lunch and then would swap over.  And the £25 booking fee was redeemable, off a counter top display.  So on a weekend I could have 22 new accounts which was fantastic because of course if you go into a salon and demonstrate it’s going to take you two hours.  So it worked really, really well and then they would go back to their salons, they would have an amazing tan the next morning to show their customers and they got the product with them there and then.

Mike Southon: So this is something you were selling in the trade to beauticians.  The people who work in salons, they are thinking, I will go along to it, it will be £25 but I could increase the revenue in my salon…?

Judy Naake: Absolutely because they didn’t have to buy but if they wanted it, it was there.  If they didn’t want to buy then they’d paid £25 for a good tan well and then it would cost them more than that anyway.

Mike Southon: As I understand it you spotted a good product but then it was the way that you came up with a training idea as a way of getting interested in the product and then getting it into the salons?

Judy Naake: Yes I think with any sales it’s like joining the dots, you know it takes time.  Once you get the accounts spread over the country, eventually they all meet.  Wherever I had an enquiry I would go, I promise you I went up to Dundee from Nottingham and right down to Cornwall and because you have to because you need that spread.

Mike Southon: So how quickly did the business grow because it started with you just taking on the product and going to a few salons I guess.  How soon where you taking on staff?

Judy Naake: Probably I would say about two-and-a-half years I think because I did it all myself and I remember going to the Bank Manager and it was the first time I’d ever sort of had any dealings with borrowing because I didn’t borrow any money to start the business.  Obviously I didn’t need a lot to sell it off the back of the car, you know and so I went to the Bank and I said, “Well, look I can open so many accounts in a day, I could really open four accounts a day.  So if I had a rep and she could do the same so it would grow much quicker.”  So I did the business plan and did the multiple.  Well and I got up to about a million and I said but that’s ridiculous because you know but I don’t need to take that much.  And so I borrowed I think £12000, unsecured which was pretty good and took on my first rep and it really rolled from there because she was selling in one part of the country and I was doing the rest.  And then eventually I took on a PR company, Felicity Calthrop who’s been fantastic and the value of PR I can’t tell you is just fantastic and that really got it off the ground.  But I had already got a hundred odd accounts already because it’s no good taking on the PR, putting the cart before the horse, you have to get the accounts on the ground so people can actually buy the stuff once you’ve got the write-ups.

Mike Southon: Well let’s put a time line onto this.  When was it, you first saw the St Tropez product.  Do you remember which year it was?

Judy Naake: It was 12 years ago.

Mike Southon: Just 12 years so you are talking about 1995. How long did it get to the stage where you borrowed the £12000 and got your first rep?

Judy Naake: About two years I think.

Mike Southon: All right and you’d built up how many accounts by then?

Judy Naake: About a hundred.

Mike Southon: On your own, and then it’s time to get a rep and now how big is the organisation?

Judy Naake: Well at one time I say one time because I sold out as you know a year last March.  We were employing a 140 people because we had in-store sales people as well as a sales force at about 20 odd and so there was salon sales, retail sales about 20 office staff.

Mike Southon: So at the peak which was a couple of years ago which is 2005 probably ten years after you started?

Judy Naake: Yes I had 140 people.

Mike Southon: 140 people and you were turning over roughly how much was it… is it a matter of…

Judy Naake: At that time, it would have been I think about £16 million to £17 million.  Excuse me if I am a bit scratchy but it was like having a big snow ball coming behind you know we were running all the time and really it wasn’t ever so structured but that’s really I think where my upbringing really helped because I have the ability to do mental arithmetic and I know what’s coming in and I know what’s going out and I know how much I owe.  So really that was as close as I got to a budget, I knew what I could afford and what I couldn’t if that makes sense.

Mike Southon: No, definitely and what about building up your team during that time?

Judy Naake: We built the team slowly, we really only built as we felt we could afford it.  So our first rep was Melanie and we took on Claire for the southwest, then we took another girl Elaine in the north.  Then I think I took on a trainer because the training was getting too much for all of us and we opened a training school in Nottingham that was a huge leg up for us and you see we didn’t go retail until…oh when would it be, we had had a big article in Vogue in 1998.  Kathy Phillips gave me a fantastic write-up, then we had a full page in The Evening Standard, a double page spread in the mail.  Then it went crazy and then we really had to step up the game and that was when the departmental stores wanted us to enter.  So I at that point there was still only me and I went and did the training at Harvey Nichols and it was just such a phenomenon though we didn’t have a consultant in there.  They said, oh it’s all right, they will sell it from a certain area and the customers were just coming in droves until in the end all the staff in Harvey Nichols were up in arms because they were spending all day selling our product or directing customers to our counter.  And so that was the point I had to take on some people and I started to employ temporary sales staff and then we started to really ramp up the game and get more people in.

Mike Southon: And this really was when the PR started kicking in with?

Judy Naake: Yes.

Mike Southon: …with the PR company because you are well known for doing some of the most famous people in the U.K there’s Posh Spice you have done. You don’t do them personally, though. Do you do some of them personally?

Judy Naake: Yeah, oh no all of those, oh yes I used to do them personally because I go around to their homes. But of course it was always nice for me to do them personally because of course we knew that they were getting the best tan.  But also you strike quite a nice personal relationship with them, so I would say when they offer to pay, I’d say well happily you know you can pay me.  But if you would like it complimentary once you decide if you really like it or perhaps later on down the line if we could use your name sometimes it’s okay, then you’d be welcome.  And so that was what we did and so some I can’t mention at all because obviously they are very private people but people like Victoria or Cat say of course not, happy to…so it worked well.

Mike Southon: Absolutely because we talked about elevator pitch in our book and you got a perfect elevator pitch, we will say you stamped some sort of premise which is we have the best tanning.

Judy Naake: Yeah absolutely.

Mike Southon: And then if it’s proof, you just say well have a chat with Victoria Beckham or Cat Deeley, you know where do you want to sign.  It is a very simple sell at that level.

Judy Naake: `Well absolutely and this thing is I promise you it is just the best product.  When I saw it I fell in love with it and it was just a question of showing people how to apply it. And I couldn’t bear to have a complaint, I promise you if I got a complaint, if someone phoned the office and they said they didn’t like it, they couldn’t get on with it, I used to talk them through and say well how…you know what did you do and so on and so forth.  Try it again tonight, if you can’t get on with it, phone me back tomorrow.  If they did phone back I would say I will come over and I will tan you and show you how to do it properly and that’s what I did.  Because, you know you really are only as good as your last tan and people have to know how good it is and that was really where the self tanning workshops worked because if you get a therapist say, oh I don’t know how to do it or it looks a bit dark I am not keen on that, there would be another therapist who she knew saying, no you are not doing it right.  So I think I built brand loyalty by meeting all the therapists myself and I used to go around colleges and do training sessions as well so then you’d got 40 students a day.  So it was hard work.

Mike Southon: Very exhausting.

Judy Naake: Yeah it was…it was but clearly you know it paid off.

Mike Southon: Well let me get to 1995 roughly I guess, you are turning up £17 million, you got 140 staff and you have gone retail as you said, and I am sure very profitable then did you get an offer out of the blue or did you always know that somebody would want to come and buy you?

Judy Naake: Well in fact we never wanted to sell but I was diagnosed with cancer in October ‘02 and then I got it again in October ’03 I thought you know come on this is getting a bit much now and so we decided that we would like to sell.  So a guy called Steve Oakes was a rainmaker and we had a few meetings with him which were organised by our Bank Manager and went really from there, and it took longer than we thought to bring the sale off because I suppose… because we were so busy.  Our books wouldn’t have been as in order for a bigger, large company you know so it took a while to get the correct financial people in place because if I had a weakness I would say that was possibly it.  Although having said that I think I managed it pretty well myself when I was opening the mail myself and doing all the cheques myself, under that claim I think that was the best.

Mike Southon: So who did you sell to in the end?

Judy Naake: To LDC.

Mike Southon: LDC…?

Judy Naake: Lloyds Capital

Mike Southon: Oh okay and what have they done with the business?

Judy Naake: Much of the same really.  I think they are really still restructuring because the growth for this company has to be in America because we took 92% of worldwide production.  So there is America and the rest of the world and Europe really because although I had distribution for Europe. I was really too busy to get myself out there.  We had some…a few countries that were doing well in Europe but we had an issue with France and Luxemburg because the product was coming back to England in grey market.  So we got very, very careful, the same in Germany.  So it really…we had to draw back on Europe because all we were doing was killing our home market.

Mike Southon: So you are still involved in the company?

Judy Naake: A little bit.  I am what they call lifetime president so I still do A- list celebs and PR but we have just got a new Chief Exec who is Michelle Feeney who used to be with Mac and so I am thrilled about that because I think she is going to do really well because I still have a financial stake and shares in there,  But of course I don’t want to work so hard and I think Michelle understands the business.  Previous to that they had a male guy who really knew nothing about the beauty business and I think that was not the best for me but of course you know I am sure he was putting in there to do a different job.

Mike Southon: So you are doing anything else other than tanning A-list celebrities?

Judy Naake: Well I do, do inspirational talks and that type of thing and I have an involvement with the perfume studio which is a Bespoke fragrance which is lovely which my son is doing all the work for.  But I am very much involved with that.  We have an airbrush make up which I think is very new and different.  So I do a bit with that as well but trust me I am not out in the car selling off the back the car anymore.

Mike Southon: No you’ve very much been there and done that.

Judy Naake: Yes well I hope so.

Mike Southon: Let me ask you a few sort of Coutts specific questions since we are in Coutts today.  When did you first get involved with Coutts?

Judy Naake: I think it was about four may be even five years ago you know.

Mike Southon: Was it before you sold the company?

Judy Naake: Yes before we sold the company yes.

Mike Southon: So what happened how did that come about?

Judy Naake: We were approached, I think it was our NatWest Bank Manager Simon Hodgkin who said really now you are getting a bit big for us and Coutts would suit you better.

Mike Southon: Oh really?

Judy Naake: Yeah and that’s how we came to join Coutts really.

Mike Southon: And how did you find Coutts, or how was it different to NatWest?

Judy Naake: Well now I have to say NatWest were very good but Coutts are something else again and they were fantastic.  What I love about it is the fact that I have got my own Bank Manager, I don’t know how many accounts he handles but I am sure it’s not that many and he watches my account daily.  I really don’t have to do anything and if I am away on holiday which I am quite often, and I can either text him or phone and say Steve, will you transfer me some money to whatever, wherever I wanted to go and he will say of course darling.  And then he will text you back, it’s done darling.  And I think for me that’s great.  I am sure he doesn’t call all his clients darling but it works for me.

Mike Southon: Yeah absolutely.

Judy Naake: And of course then you always get the follow up from Head Office that says you know the money, is it okay for us to send this money and that is just the peace of mind is fantastic.

Mike Southon: And were they useful when you were selling the company?

Judy Naake: They were very useful yes they certainly gave us tax planning advice.  They talked to us on all sorts of things, philanthropy, they even had a meeting with my son because they knew that with the publicity of the sale he would have problems with that because that’s something you never think about…do you?  And you know they said if you want us to deal with the begging letters we will do it.  You know that’s a hell of a service I think. I will tell you what has been a great plus for me as well.  All the social events they have because it means that when I go out, I meet new friends who are on the same level and that’s important because when you come say from nothing as I have, I mean you know I’ve worked hard to get where I am but it’s difficult because a lot of your friends can’t really afford to go where you could afford to go.  And one of my best friends Nancy Bird I met at one of the ladies luncheons and we have been all over the world together you know since, which is nice.

Mike Southon: So you do use the networking that Coutts facilitates?

Judy Naake: Yes I certainly do, I mean I have to say I don’t really use it for business but it’s a great networking yes.

Mike Southon: And then really the last question just about the changing face of entrepreneurship in the UK, the climate for entrepreneurs in this country and specifically for female entrepreneurs what’s your feeling about that?

Judy Naake: Well I think there is a lot more female entrepreneurs about though I don’t think there is that glass ceiling that was there years ago certainly when I started.  People know well I say they no longer assume the business is owned by a man I think they are still a little bit of that.  But I think there is opportunities for everyone whatever the climate is if you are prepared to take that step, work hard and risk a bit, I think if you keep knocking on that door, you must get there in the end.  I am sure that’s the case, I don’t believe…that there is no such word as can’t, anything is possible and particularly in this day and age.

Mike Southon: Absolutely I am sure this is what you talk about in your inspirational speeches which…

Judy Naake: Certainly do so.

Mike Southon: Yes and I agree with you completely I think the climate is very good for lady entrepreneurs.  People haven’t asked me, do women make good entrepreneurs and I will say yes I think they are better than men in many respects because they can multitask which is something that women are naturally good at. 

Judy Naake: Oh absolutely no question about it because I built my business as a single mother and in fact when I was getting a divorce, I went to my Solicitor who is my father’s Solicitor and he said, “Well why are you coming to me saying you want a divorce.  You can’t afford to buy a loaf of bread.”  And I said, “Well it’s a good thing my father owns a bakery then isn’t it?”  But within six months I was on my second BMW.

Mike Southon: There we go and that’s inspiration for everybody and final bit…maybe something Coutts could do for you, Steve your private banker what’s his tan like?

Judy Naake: I have never tanned him.

Mike Southon: You have never tanned him.

Judy Naake: No, professional at all times.

Mike Southon: Professional at all times. This has been Mike Southon for Beermat Radio in association with Coutts, having great fun chatting with Judy Naake.  Thank you very much Judy.

Judy Naake: Thank you.